Gotta know...

[JC]

I am sure you all have touched on this some time before in this forum, and if so, please lead me there. If not, can anyone maybe give a little advice on line thickness. Does anyone use a certain type of pen to help out? Is there a certain brush on the software that is used that people like? Just a thought by myself here tonight. I just feel like i am missing out on something. not so sure that i should just keep going over a line with my pencil or pen to create more thickness...most of the time with the marker, it looks very rough.

JC
www.nationals.com
not my website, but the team i play for...it is my push to make all of you washington nationals baseball fans!!!!!!!!

[AboutFaces]

The team you play for? Are you kidding? If not, look for me in the stands this year. I'll be the guy - heck, look at my picture and the caricatures of me on this board. I'll be that guy! I'm local, and I'll definitely be going to any games I can.

As to your questions about line thickness, CaricatureShop addressed that somewhere very nicely (admin, can you link that for JC? I can't find it anymore). And some folks on the National Caricature Network Board were talking about it just today. Here's what they said:

Thick and thin line work is the sort of thing that takes a lot of practice. Be careful not to try to formulize it too much (always under the nose and chin for example). There will always be exceptions.

That said, here are some areas to watch for: A thicker line to describe shadow (underside of nose), weight (bottom of feet), to describe overlapping forms and depth (a thicker line will appear closer than a thin line) or the turning of a form/curve (like a roll of fat or rounded muscle or mass of hair).

Thin lines are good for sharp edges (a building) or a hard edge (like where bone comes to the surface of the skin - a cheekbone or elbow), areas with a highlight (a bald pate), and interior contours that blend softly (like jowls).

The line that moves from thin to thick (and possibly back again to thin) is much more visually interesting than a line with a dead (even) weight along it's length. You will generally vary the weight along your line to describe all those elements you see, instead of using an entire thick line for one area and an entire thin line somewhere else. Go have a look at some Al Hirschfeld and follow his decision making through a drawing and you'll have a better idea of what I'm trying to say

and

A great book to read about using line thickness is "The Art of Comic Book Inking" by Gary Martin. I know inking isn't exactly what you are talking about, but the art of inking is all about the use of line to suggest form and dimension, and that's really what you are trying to do. It's a great book, and I understand he's come out with a "Volume 2" which I have not yet seen. Pick it up, it's worth it.

Personally I use thicker lines to define hard edges and places where you need to seperate background from a foreground object (side of face, etc.) and reserve thinner lines of lesser edges like the sides of the nose, creases in the face, etc. Establishing a light source like Lar mentioned is also a good way to keep line width logical... keep the daker lines away from the light source and the lighter closer to.

[JC]

WOW....thank you for the great information....exactly the kind of info i was looking for...i appreciate it...very helpful.

as for the nationals, yes, i will be there unless ol' frank decides to not keep me on the team...should be exciting...i take it you live in the area....might need to get some tips are where to call home there..

thanks again for the help with lines!!!

[toonMom]

The only thing I found from caricatureshop was puting an X where your light source is and making the lines heavier as they get further away from the source.

I think you summed the whole thing up here!

[donpinsent]

the kind of pen you use can make a big difference. i always (like, always) use a dixon markette marker, which, unfortunately, is apparently only available in canada. and even here only in specialty shops. but basically, what makes it ideal is that the tip is firm enough that it takes a long time for it to squash down (unlike, for example, your standard sharpie which goes from a point to a round stub ib about three drawings), but flexible enough to bend into a nice paintbrush-shaped curve. if you can find a marker with those qualities, it's ideal. even then, it'll take some practice before you habitually turn your wist the right way to make the subtle line thickness changes as you go, but after a while, you'll be doing it without even thinking about it.

[JC]

thank you very much for the information and tip...i know that it is more than just the pen...the technique is something that will take practice...figures that canada would have that type of pen...basically spend parts of 5 years there, and now i probably won't make it back like i usually would...again, thanks..
JC

[AboutFaces]

Don,

I use Markettes as well, and used to use DeSign Markers before they were discontinued last year. I was told by my supplier that the Markettes had recently been discontinued as well. Where do you get yours?

[Mikey]

Has anyone tried the "Sakura Pigma Brush" XSDK-BR#49

It can be seen at :

www.bluelinepro.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=BL&Category_Code=sa

I used it to ink the drawing of Hans on my tutorial at:

virtualart.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=drawRoom&action=display&thread=1092223357

It has a finely pointed flexible fiber tip that works like a brush, that will give you an incredible flexiblility. It's ink is also Archival and waterproof!

I love it!

Mikey

[donpinsent]

i get mine at an art supplies store called loomis and tolles. they're still stocking them every time i go back. i hope they don't get discontinued! i'll have to quit street caricaturing!

[Frank Zieglar]

I just 'discovered' that brush Mikey mentioned. It's a small brush. Very small compared to the Copic.

I bought one to fart around with and then I realized it would be good for groups shots where I need to reduced the size of each face. ;D

I like the Copics we have been using, but our manager said we are getting rid of them. To much hassle with the refills and tips.

I was told we were checking into a Thinrite 680 which should be inbetween a Copic and a Design 229LF. I was told it comes from Dixon in Canada and I haven't been able to find it on the net - if anyone knows a link I would be grateful


><> Frank Zieglar <><
-- There is no failure except in no longer trying. -- Elbert Hubbard

[JC]

Again, thanks for all the information everyone....every bit helps!!!

[Frank Zieglar]

Sorry JC - I didn't really help answer your question.

MARKERS - use any marker that you feel good with and you can get line variations with. Commonly used ones include but are not limited too...

1) DESIGN 229LF - discontinued but a few diehards have some stashed away secretly - kinda like when they came out with New Coke. Bought by Sanford ( sanfordcorp.com who then discontinues anything competing against a Sharpie warning you can find Design markers but not this model - so if you see a Design at a store it will be the wrong one.

2) SHARPIE - cheap and easy to find but wont let you get any line variety

3) COPIC - has a brush tip that takes getting use to but allows for good line variation, is refillable, can replace old tips - copicmarker.com/home/cm1/smartlist/20/0

4) Brush tips in general will be simial to the Copic

5) I've drawn with a chisel tip - you just twist the tip to get line variation

6) Calligraphy marker - I know a gut who likes to use them - twist it like a chisel tip

7) SOFTWARE - if you have a tablet some of them are pressure sensitive aloowing you to get line variation that way - also changing the brush and size settings

This is one like, but I'm not sure about the light fastness or archieval quality. www.misterart.com/store/view/001/group_id/2370/CRAYOLA-Conical-Marker.htm
I REALLY DO LIKE IT! People think I'm joking.


LINE QUALITY

Some people do go over a line a few times to get the thickness they desire - but you risk messing up your line.

When using marker you want to have...
1) thick lines
2) thin lines
3) smooth lines or fluidity

Do not use a shaky/sketchy style (it doesn't look good in marker) and not monotone or all the same size lines.

Too achieve your line variation with a marker use...
1) speed
2) pressure
3) angle

Drawing to slow will cause the marker to bleed more - too fast and the ink might not flow fast enough. A slow line is likey to be thicker. The pressue you put on the tip while drawing will also affect the thickness. So will the angle you hold the marker at. Perendicular to the paper with light pressure and good speed will get you a razor thin line. Laying the marker down with pressure and slowing down will get you a big ol' fat line.

On a chisel tip or calligripy type you will still use speed and pressure but instead of angle of the marker you will be looking at the angle or direction of the tip.

Take your marker and draw the fattest line you can down your paper - now draw the thinnest line you can. When drawing all your lines should vary between those two lines. Variation within each line itself. Not one line is fat and the other line is thin - all lines should have some variation.

You can draw a great picture with a monotone line - but the same picture with good "Line Quality" will pop more and look tons better.



When I have chance I'll post some images to help you get a better visual of what I mean.


><> Frank Zieglar <><
-- There's more to this world than just people, you know. -- Hobbes

[JC]

I am very thankful for that Frank...tons of great stuff there....I am starting to see how angles and speed play a big role....I bought a brush pen the other day...it is PITT artist pen...seems like i can control it better...i also have a tablet...just got painter 9, so it will take some time to figure all of it out, but the info you gave is awesome...i do notice in everyone's drawings how much the lines play a big part in making the picture...i just need to find the confidence in the stroke ...i want to be too precise, but i know that comes with practice...thanks again...

JC
"Don't ask for a light load, but rather ask for a strong back."
       - unknown

[corky]

before i launch into a discussion of pens...i don't know anything about baseball...if it doesn't involve skates and a stick, i don't watch it...sorry, jc.
as for pens...i like the Staedtler mars graphic 300 series. brush on one end, marker tip on the other. i combine that with a black ballpoint pen for fine lines, and a gray marker for some shading (unless it's colour, in which case i use the chartpak and prismacolour markers).
a lot has been said about thick and thin lines. i'd like to give you some advice on drawing male and female, young and old. i've found that when you draw lines on the face, even if they are crowsfeet or laugh lines which you can see as a "line", it's best to use a thin line, or even just black pencil crayon, to lighten it up. you'll make the person look older, because the line is heavier in pen. if you're drawing a woman, always draw less lines than you see! yes, that is vanity, but your subject will be much happier with the picture. as i said, natural lines tend to look heavier when drawn with pen. i like the brush end of the marker for hair, brows, fabric, that sort of thing. nice thick to thin lines happen. Staedtler also makes a very nice, inexpensive ballpoint pen, and a series of colour pens called Silver ball, which i love, as well. i combine those with pencil crayon, which gives a nice combination of thick and thin lines. (take a look at my version of carol burnett...that's the silverball pens and prismacolour crayons).

[JC]

thanks stoontoon...more great information...now i just have to start really trying all of the ideas so i can become comfortable...all this feedback is great...never thought i would have this great response...stay warm in the great white north...