Self-criticism and us

[corky]

I am taking a class called Critical Theory-Analysis of Modern Art. Aside from the pretentious vocabulary, it's very interesting to read what critics have to say about modern art. Here's one statement that got me thinking, and I wanted to ask a question about it.
"Modernism criticizes from the inside....the essence of Modernism lies, as I see it, in the use of the characteristic methods of a discipline to criticize the discipline itself." (Clement Greenburg).
He goes on to talk about how only modernists can authentically criticize other modernists. That's kind of what we do on this board...we're caricaturists giving ideas and feedback to other caricaturists. So here's my question, to everyone....
Are we, as caricature artists, the only ones qualified to criticize caricature art? Without the public, we couldn't do what we do. But do we want to hear their judgement of our work?
Please, ruminate upon this question, and exposit at length...which is critic speak for "Whadya think?"

[dave]

Most non-artists that I've shown my caricatures to simply smile, look uncomfortable, and nod. They just don't seem to get it, they think if it's cartoony, it isn't 'real' art, and no effort went into the result.

I have a close friend who just grunts, and has to tell me that it looks like someone else's style, but will never give me the slightest compliment or appreciate the time and work it took. He liked to draw, too, when we were in high school, but couldnt follow up on it, maybe that's why he acts that way.

I eventually learned who to show my stuff to, and get legitimate feedback and criticism, and who would be a waste of time. (That may sound harsh, but I don't mean it to be, it's just true.)

[toonMom]

Dave - I know exactly what you mean. I used to show my husband by work, but soon realized it was a waste of time and frustration. He would either shrug his shoulders or think it was someone other than who it was. Now, I know I'm not great at this, but I do come close to hitting the nail on the head from time to time.

I think those who don't draw caricatures, just don't "get it". - generally speaking

That said, this board (and others like it) become a very important of our lives.

[dmcaricature]

This is an interesting subject indeed. Some people simply do not how to react. After doing this stuff for a while, you learn how to deal with it. Yes it is strange when good friends grunt....myself, if I were to see a new Dave piece? I would probably grunt and do a back flip in appreciation for what he has created. Many people simply do not how to give a compliment about anything in life period, due to their own securities etc. That is another topic..I am lucky enough to have a partner that knows my work and is an artist herself. Her opinions and critisicms on my work are very important to me. Why? she tells me if it is crap, and responds favourably when the work is good....

[donpinsent]

i think the statement is fairly true of caricature, but only to a point. i find youse guyses the best judges i've come across yet in terms of style and rendering and stuff like that--the actual art of my work, but when it comes to likeness, i find the opinions of non-artistic types invaluable! if a caricature looks like its subject, someone doesn't need a caricaturist's eye to see it. my wife is my best sounding board in this area. like dm's partner, my wife is absolutely brutally honest. she doesn't want me to embarrass myself, i guess.

[dmcaricature]

Don:
We pretty know when we have nailed someone down.
caricature wise. Other times it is a bit tricky. I find trying to exaggerate pretty people with very propotional features a real challenge, so I try to practice that. Some caricaturists will go to town on, say attractive celebrities and distort so much that they look ugly. I believe the beauty should be maintained even through caricature.

[corky]

Wow! What great thoughts. I consider this board invaluable, because if someone gives me feedback, I know it's because they know what they're talking about. I find it frustrating when I do caricatures in public, because there's always some yodel who thinks he knows art, and will stand there and criticize (and expect me to do it over, without paying me!). And I've dealt with people who've never seen a caricature, and get disappointed when they see what I've done to their face. As a result, I don't draw true caricatures when I'm drawing the public; it's more like a pleasant Disney version. Some people just don't want to see themselves as the artists see them. I've also heard lots of criticism from my fellow students and instructors, who think caricatures aren't really Art. But, we do need the public; that's how our work gets recognized. So, I guess we have to put up with a certain amount of criticism.

[Ozbo]

I envy you all, and am striving to "learn" to have the eye needed to do caricatures.
To "hit" a personality with very few strokes, and manage to exaggerate features without losing the personality is truly an enviable skill. To share your efforts, experiences, and techniques is admirable.

As a member of the "public," I do look at caricatures with a different appreciation of effort, because firstly, I judge a work on recognizability, then I observe the exaggerations, and decide if they add to or detract from the rendering. For example, I will see a "good" caricature of say, Sly Stallone. Then, I will notice that the cheekbone has been overexaggerated, and detracts from the image, because it looks too pronounced, in relation to the general outline, enlargement/reduction aside...
It's hard to verbalize all the components that make up appreciation of a good caricature, but nevertheless, I appreciate all of you!

~O

[pagmatic]

I used to get discouraged when my wife would say something like "his nose is too big". But when I showed Vin this one (of him), he said it was perfect.

Just the other day, JC was saying how good my style is, and not to change it.

So I dunno what to think sometimes.

-Mike

[etilander]

I would argue with the fact that we know when we've nailed someone. I think people have said it in other discussions, but I know sometimes I've nailed all the features, think it's my greatest work ever, and then have the next person look at it and say "Who the hell's that." Or you see your own stuff a week later and think "What the **** was I thinking." I think this board is great for tips on style, and tricks to get the likeness, but the real trick is to get the average joe to say "crap yer mighty good. That looks jest lack Jim-Bob. Yeh even got his third nostril and extra ear lobe."

Erik.

[corky]

I find that most often when the public says "who's that" it's more like they live in a very insular world and never bother to see any other movie or book or news report other than their own narrow interests. I've had people who've looked at a caricature of our former prime minister, and asked who is that, and when i reply, Jean Chretien, they say, "never seen him before. I don't watch the news." You don't have to watch CBC all the time to know who the dad-blamed prime minister is! But that's the world they live in. I can't count how many times people look at pictures of their friends, and say, "it doesn't look like them." What they really mean is, it doesn't look like my personal vision of that person, so it isn't valid. !

[pagmatic]

they say that Everyone's a Critic; but The Pagster is here to tell ya that not everybody knows what it means to criticize.

Bob Dylan's lyric, "don't Criticize what you don't understand" rings true when it comes to this--in regards to understanding the meaning behind a caricature. I'll be the first to say that I may not fully get it because I'm gearing towards the "cartoony" look of one; rather than all the exxagerational aspects of it.

Have I lost anybody?

What brought it home for me was reading Mike Peter's book, The World of Cartooning with Mike Peters: How Caricature Develop. Peter's is a cartoonist who doesn't dabble in Caricature for the same reaons I do. It makes me feel alot less "guilty" for not breaking my style and everything I developed; while still doing what I love to do--and yet be accepted in the caricature family.

Ummmm.. I think I lost myself here:(

What do you think?

-Mike

[dmcaricature]

Mike: It all boils down to the drawing. A very simplistic style or cartoony style has to actually be proportionally exagerrated to obtain a likeness as well as a realistic rendering. It is how the artist stretches or squashes facial elements with 1 line or a thousand that make the caricature work. You seem to have the ability to capture a lot with a little. Keep working at it

[pagmatic]

Thanks DM- you said it as better as I could. I shouldn't post stuff like that on one cup of coffee

[corky]

never mind losing yourself...you lost me on that one, too. What did you mean by feeling guilty? Shouldn't you be doing something worthwhile with your life, instead of drawing cartoons (I can hear my mother's voice saying that right now!).

We're all here to learn and network with other artists. Cartooning, in general, has been maligned as a legitimate art form! People in my art history class are stunned when I tell them that Picasso, Da Vinci, Rembrandt, Raphael, Daumier...and on and on...all draw cartoons or caricatures during their careers. So we're in good company.